July 27, 2006

The Israel Rant

Some naysayers of the most recent incursion into the sovereign territory of another country that it is a violation of international law; they should know better, there is no such thing as international law.

My views on Israel are mixed and extremely controversial. Therefore, up until now, I have kept them for myself. During the hoo-ha at Concordia, I stayed neutral, because I believed both sides were behaving like spoiled children; the Palestinians with outright defiance and the Jews with manipulation of school rules in order to provoke the outright defiance.

After the Second World War, the UN wanted to help prevent war from breaking out in the Holy Land where Zionists were attempting to create the state of Israel. In 1948, while the UN was trying to work out a 2-state solution, Israel unilaterally declared sovereignty. It had the necessary means to defend itself, plus the backing of the United States and most of the Western World, what was the worst that could happen?

So Israel was suddenly a state recognized by the International community after completely disobeying them. International law was broken once again. International law is like jaywalking, everybody violates it, it is only punished when police want to send a message, and it is always the innocent bystander who gets screwed.

When Zionists arrived in the area, they moved onto land that was purchased from wealthy landowners who lived in Beirut or Damascus. The population that inhabited the land were serfs, similar to the ‘habitants’ in New France, who gave their excess production to a Seigneur, these people and their families had worked that land for centuries. So when Europeans moved onto their land and evicted them, they had nothing in their name, and nowhere to go. Surprisingly, they got mad. The refugees went to the cities, mainly in Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. Who did these people think they were? I can’t call them Israeli at this point because the state did not exist before it was carved up in 1948. The Kurds and Armenians must have been hitting themselves over the head when they saw this. Legitimate nations with no states were watching as European Jews were buying themselves one.

For those who say this conflict dates back 5000 years, they are wrong. When Muhammad’s armies entered Jerusalem in the 8th century, not a single sword was drawn. Muhammad’s descendant, Abu Bakr and the Jewish Patriarch of Jerusalem had worked out a peaceful agreement which would allow the religions to share the city.

The trigger for the beginning of the conflict was the creation of the state of Israel. We are not going to uncreate the state. The International community made its bed and must now lie in it. The descendants of the evicted Arabs and those bombed by Israel in 1982 swell Hamas and Hezbollah’s ranks.

Where did Israel screw up? What we are learning now in the Middle East is that if you want democracy, you live with the result. Zionism and the Zionist movement is inherently exclusive and by default. Before y’all go calling me an Anti-Semite, I suggest you look up the word. Most Israelis came from Europe and many of their descendants are Slavic (edit) and therefore, not Semitic. Palestinians, or the people the Zionists evicted, are Semitic as they are from the Levant. Europeans who bought land in the area and came and evicted the current tenants, forcing them to leave their ancestral home as refugees with nowhere to go, simply because they were not Jewish, is well, Anti-Semitic. It is downright racist. Questioning the motives of Zionism is a violation of the Israeli constitution and I could be arrested for making the previous statement. Accept government propaganda or be arrested...where have I heard that before?

What would have worked would have been to include these people in the present state of Israel, make Arabic an official language, and govern the country together. This could have happened if Israel did not rush to declare sovereignty in 1948. Two religions can share a country; we saw it in Lebanon for a very long time. But Antonio, then the Arabs would outnumber the Jews. Ah my friends, this is what we call democracy. But it is not convenient for the Zionists, ah well, when you want democracy, you get what the people voted for. Gotta give credit to those Palestinians, they sure know how to make babies.

Now the West Bank and Gaza will become a sovereign state. Hopefully Jerusalem will become an international city-state, possibly governed by a UN mandate. Some people want this conflict to end. Too many mistakes have been made. Too much blood has been shed. The two parties can no longer sit down and negotiate peace. The international community must step up, stop treating Israel like a spoiled child, and get it right the second time around.

Note: For all those who want to call me Anti-Semitic and racist, I would ask you to think twice. I am questioning the actions the Israeli government took in 1948 and the method by the Zionists chose to migrate to Israel. The readers of my blog how much I stress equality of EVERYBODY, this also applies to everybody. I am FAR FROM condoning the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah. Senseless violence breeds senseless violence. I am simply looking to find the root of senseless violence. It takes two sides to perpetuate a prolonged violence. Eliminating Hezbollah and Hamas would be better achieved by persuading the respective Lebanese and Palestinian populations that violence is not necessary to achieve their goals. That means violence and endorsement of violence by the United States and the Western World must stop. Blowing up their cities and killing their leaders only galvanizes them, and has gotten them democratically elected. Clearly the methods that been used thus far have not been successful.

UPDATE: I never said Israelis were not semitic. I stated that most jews who moved from Eastern Europe and Russia were in fact slavs, not semites. Semitic or not, every Israeli is entitles to equal treatment under the law. Descendance should not matter.

It should also be noted that Hezbollah will not discriminate between Semitic Jews and non-semitic jews. They want to kill all Jews. They should be disarmed. However, as we have seen with the IRA in Ireland and the ETA in Spain, we need peace first and retaliatory bombing is not the answer. We must let the government of Lebanon actively participate in the process. They just peacefully got rid of Syria. All they needed was time. Cooler heads should have prevailed. to quote the West Wing, In democracies, often times other people win (h/t Lauren).

Now Israel has bombed a UN convoy and has killed a Canadian soldier. A white flag was being waved and according to the UN, they had asked Israel 10 times not to bomb the outpost. Given that a laser guided missile executed the attack, the investigation into this should be interesting. If Israel is found to have deliberately bombed the UN, they should be immediately expelled. Commandant Steve will have some 'splainin to do...

137 Commentaires:

Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Excellent post. I hope the international community will step up to the plate and finally solve this problem once and for all.

7/26/2006 4:57 PM  
Blogger juicynewf a dit...

Surely a "measured" rant, but a well-argued post at that. I was expecting more drama, but I forget that the need to pre-empt accusations of anti-Semitism clouds much of the debate surrounding the A-I conflict and its environs.

Also, I felt the need to applaud your brilliant use (invention?) of the term "hoo-ha".

I miss you!

7/26/2006 6:38 PM  
Blogger ottlib a dit...

A bold and courageous post.

Regardless of your disclaimers expect the trolls to come out in force to condemn the messenger because it will be very difficult to condemn the message.

7/26/2006 6:49 PM  
Blogger Manitoba Liberal a dit...

Mordaci Richler's opinion on how many Quebecois view the Jewish population of Quebec still stands.

7/26/2006 7:55 PM  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

You know what Antonio Jews don't care what you think about Israel's rights. Your family's country was fascist and was an allie of Nazi Germany sending JEws to death camps and necessitating the creatioon of the state of Isreal as a home for millions of Dp Jews that no one else wanted to take. So honestly Antonio, we don't fuckin' care what you think. Isreal will defend Jews from the threat of anhilatuion by Hezbollah, which is its stated purpose. And ISreal will kill combatants in a ten to one ratio, which it has always stated it will do. Thats the rule and Hezbollah knows it. Ten of them for every one Jew killed. Too bad. You don't want Leanese civillians to die, then stop supporting Hezbollah and the killing of Jews.

7/26/2006 7:56 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

Sb's post is pathetic....this is typical of jews or israelis who cant accept criticism...criticize the state of israel and they will call you anti-semitic or they will call people nazis or fascist..

Go live in your "democratic state" where rabbis say one million arabs are not worth a jewish fingernail and where we still have debates about the small size of arab brains.

Go "defend yourself" in a country where we have one of the strongest armies in the world and where we fear the threat of "annhilation" by small unworthy guerrillas.

People like you who can't accept criticism are a bunch of racist ignorants!

7/26/2006 8:08 PM  
Blogger andrewridgeley a dit...

I blame the Irish.

7/26/2006 8:12 PM  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...

The attack from Shoshana is really offensive.

Nowhere in the post did Antonio did support Hezbollah or Hamas. Nowhere. He condemns the killing of innocent civilians, Lebanese or Israelis.

Saying that his ancestors were Fascists is terrible. My grandfather had to fight in the Italian Army. They couldn't get away, they were forced.

My family, though, did provide food and a place to hide for British soldiers. They did that fully knowing they could get themselves executed if they were caught. They did it because they had values and put their lives on the line to stick to those values. Your attack is a strong offence to families like mine (and probably Antonio's) who were fierce believers in peace and equality.

Opposing the government of a nation doesn't mean that you are racist. I am not Anti-American but I strongly oppose the positions of the American government. Am I anti-Canadian because I don't support the Harper government ? I am not. I have a Canadian flag waving on my house.

It's the same dynamic as discussing with Quebec separatists. When they run out of arguments, they simply say that you are a traitor, a liar or a whole bunch of insults like that. Staying calm and backing your reasoning with strong arguments is usually much stronger than simply insulting people and yelling.

My 2 cents,

Alex
P.S. : I see the anti-semitic insults coming. I have worked my ass off for a "jewish candidate" last election. When some radical imam asked muslims not to vote for him, I was very insulted because I knew this guy stood for peace and was working with the Francophonie to make peace in the Middle-East. I was delighted to see leaders of the Muslim community come together to back the candidacy of Jacques Saada. I was really proud to see Sikhs, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants and Jews from my riding come together to get that guy elected. I didn't work but we worked hard and it was really nice to see the effort.

7/26/2006 8:28 PM  
Blogger foottothefire a dit...

Good work FD! Excellent post.

7/26/2006 8:37 PM  
Blogger Math the Great a dit...

Great post Antonio! This conflict is probably one of the most complicated right now in the world. It's very difficult for us to have an opinion on the subject.

Probablement qu'aussi longtemps qu'il y aura implication américaine dans le conflit, il ne se règlera pas. Non seulement les É-U ne sont pas neutre, mais ils penchent fortement du côté israélien. D'un côté ils semblent prôner la paix au Liban, en même temps, ils envoient plus de bombes à têtes chercheuses le plus vite possible. Le simple enlèvement de deux israliens n'est pas suffisant pour justifier des horreurs d'une telle ampleur. Probablement qu'il y a autre chose derriere ces attaques, une autre occasion d'agrandir son territoire peut-être? Nous ne sommes pourtant pas en 1967...

Math

7/26/2006 8:59 PM  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Shoshana's comments are extremely offensive, yet are expected.

Can one not critize what a country does, without being labeled with having a prejudice towards the country and its people?

Can I critize the Canadian gov't without being considered anti-Canadian? Yes.

Hence, can a Canadian of Italian origin critize Israel without being told than his opinions don't matter because the country that his grandparents came from was allied with Germany during WW2?

Shoshana you crazy.

7/26/2006 11:11 PM  
Blogger Sinestra a dit...

Shoshanna, that was completely uncalled for and crass. Definitely not a measured response.

Antonio, I applaud your candidness in sharing your thoughts. I avoided the whole Con U/Bibi debacle, too. Very ugly.

7/26/2006 11:21 PM  
Blogger Michelle Oliel a dit...

I can't believe the ignorance of this post. Not to mention the blatant racism. I suggest you, who sits on your couch and does nothing but blog, does a little bit of reading. Any one who wishes to argue the history of the middle east cannot do so without understanding nor quoting the fall of the Ottotman Empire. I suggest you read Paris 1919, an excellent portrayal of the carve-up of the middle east. to suggest that Israel, took their nation prematurely is ridiculous. You my friend, are mistaken and are not the meek who inherit the earth. Again, you are so quick to cite violations of international law when convenient, not to mention without citing actual international law, yet you argue against the concept. The fact that are defining who and what we as Jews are is racist. It's the Charter Stupid. A great quote by young Liberals from the Paul Matyin campaign. You should be ashamed of yourself. It;s ok to disagree with Israel. I, as an Israeli, do at times. Can you cite any arrests in Israel for dissenters? UMMMMMM.... I didn;t think so. I suggest you get educated before you attempt to engage.

7/27/2006 1:47 AM  
Blogger Red Tory a dit...

A very thoughtful and well considered position on the issue. I'm not sure what got certain people so riled up about it.

7/27/2006 3:59 AM  
Blogger Red Tory a dit...

Shoshanna -- You are really out of control. How many cats do you have?

7/27/2006 4:01 AM  
Blogger kris a dit...

Shoshana's and Michelle's comments are not helping. Israel, like all nations, especially those with will and military power, need dissenting voices.

If Antonio is not being factual it should be a simple matter to correct him. Anything less is polarizing and divisive.

7/27/2006 4:58 AM  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

Alex your and Antonio's constant anti-semitism and support of the terrorist Hezbollah is pathetic. Its a good thing this blog was already disassociated from any Liberal organization, because it certainly would have to be after this post. Antonio doesn't know anything about what he's talking about and like I said his family lived in a fascist state thae supported Hitler at the time. He is uneducated and ignorant and you both need to study a little bit more about everything before forming oppinions on global conflict. Hezbollah knows the rules. They are also controled by Syria nd increasingly Iran, who you two also are supporting. You are both wrong and very ignorant of the situation.

7/27/2006 5:22 AM  
Blogger YYC Liberal a dit...

So honestly Antonio, we don't fuckin' care what you think.

Funny because that's what most say to you on YOUR blog.

constant anti-semitism and support of the terrorist Hezbollah is pathetic.

Do you know something we don't SB? Because he did not condone Hezbollah at all in this post.


One thing is a constant here though...Instead of SB rationaly presenting her side or ideas, she crosses a line.

Antonio doesn't know anything about what he's talking about and like I said his family lived in a fascist state thae supported Hitler at the time. He is uneducated and ignorant

Wow, okay. So is he uneducated because of his past? or is he blinded to the current situation because his grandparents were Italian?

Why not go back to your own blog and attack Ignatieff some more. Maybe Poke some more fun at his Russian Heratage?

7/27/2006 6:08 AM  
Blogger Red Tory a dit...

Shoshanna -- Your name-calling and insults are really inexcusable. If you want to take issue with the point that Antonio is making then why not just do so instead of flinging poo and making baseless accusations?

7/27/2006 6:57 AM  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Shoshana, your comments reek of racism. To claim that all descendants of Germans and Italians are prejudice against Jews because of what the goverments of their countries of origin did 70 years ago is totally beyond all reason, and just plain dumb.

Antonio never said he support Hezbollah, Syria or Iran... maybe you should read the blog for what it is, and not fabricate yet another of your outrageous conspiracy theories.

I quote,
"Antonio doesn't know anything about what he's talking about and like I said his family lived in a fascist state thae supported Hitler at the time."

What the hell kind of comment is this? Totally unjustified. Do you honestly think Antonio, who was born and raised in Canada, is ignorant and dumb on the Israel issue because of the origins of his last name

7/27/2006 8:44 AM  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

HEy Antonio, why don't you and Alex actually work for the COnservative party instead of just ensuring that they will take Montreal in the next election. Wowo with Liberal workers like you guys at Fuddle Duddle the cons have nothing to worry about.

Cat mutant racist? that's funny in a kind of white person who knows nothing kind of way. Arabs are semites too.

By the way there are Lebanese families that have been evacuated to the South of Isreal who don't support Hezbollah. Try knowing something and not supporting terrorists and helping the COnservatives to get elected Antonio and Alex.

Oh yeah I was just wondering Antonio if you could anser one question for me. How many Jew did your grandfathers in Italy help deport to death camps? You see Israel has less than no reason to care what you think, but Jews in Montreal care and will let you and the Liberal party know in the next election.

7/27/2006 9:57 AM  
Blogger James Bowie a dit...

Hi Antonio,


I did look up "Semitic," as you suggested. What I got was not what I expected. I'll share it with your gentle readers here, if I may:

"1. Of or relating to the Semites or their languages or cultures.

2. Of, relating to, or constituting a subgroup of the Afro-Asiatic language group that includes Arabic, Hebrew, Amharic, and Aramaic." (dictionary.com)

I enjoyed reading your post, although I suspect it may come back to haunt you when you run for Prime Minister. It's one of these things that is easily quoted out of context.

One point I would like to make is that there is no shame in serving your country. There is no need for anyone to excuse their participation in the Italian Army.

The reason I say this is that most people do not join armies to fight for their countries. They go to protect their homes and their friends who fight beside them.

I have a friend who is a Canadian soldier, and his grandfather served for the German army in WW2. On Rememberance Day, his unit allows its memebrs to wear their ancestors war medals. My friend wears his german decorations proudly. His grandfather was a brave man, as my friend is.

I will agree with you on one point, which is that there is no international law. Whether you use a normative or positive definition, there is no reason to belive that the puerile institutions or haphazard customs of a collection of selectively participatory countries constitute law. Law is made by the lawmaker. The lawmaker is sovereign. Noone is sovereign over the world. Thank Buddha.

While I enjoyed the nuances of your argument in today's post, I think you will continue to find it difficult to use persuasion against peoples' anger. The posts in this thread reveal real emotional responses to the conflict. Perhaps a definition argument will not be sufficient to talk them down.

Thanks for writing.

7/27/2006 10:04 AM  
Blogger A Toronto Liberal a dit...

As a proud Canadian that was born in Italy I am outraged that racism from the likes of S.B is tolerated on this blog.


No wonder Joe Volpe is being so attacked this leadership, it's pretty clear that a lot of Liberal hate ethnic minorites like us Italians.

7/27/2006 10:38 AM  
Blogger James Bowie a dit...

I love Italians. And that's not just because I eat at DiRienzo's on Champagne and Beech.

7/27/2006 10:54 AM  
Blogger Jay a dit...

Wow. I find it absolutely ridiculous that you cannot examine a governments actions without being called an anti semite! Its the governement, and its decisions not an ethnic group being slammed for their genetics. Here in Canada we have admitted our mistakes and paid retribution to the victims of our mistakes. Why is that their is always a massive invisible wall when asking for something called accountability for their past actions in Israel? Seems they are frightened to open that book because its empty and people will realize that Europeans converted judaism really had no claim to the area and the Israelites (not Israelis) were always there anyway living with other groups of people.

What really pisses me off are people like Shoshana and Michelle who have now labelled this post and its writer as racist. No where did it put down people for who they are but instead called into question governement responsibility over past decisions and actions. This type of blind support for an IDEOLOGY without consideration of individuals (who are not jewish) is exactly what these two individuals have raked Harper over the coals for. So what is it Shoshana and Michelle, do you believe in a multicultural democratic state with religious freedoms or do you support Israels approach to "democracy"? If you support the latter, maybe you both should turn in your liberal memberships and join the CPC.

7/27/2006 11:10 AM  
Blogger Jay a dit...

"Antonio doesn't know anything about what he's talking about and like I said his family lived in a fascist state thae supported Hitler at the time. He is uneducated and ignorant."

Shoshana, did you adapt this from something you found over at the blogging tories? Your attitude and choice of words on this issue is almost identical to the sludge that spews out of a neo-con. I think you re-evaluate exactly where politically you stand here in Canada. You seem to think that Canada should be Progressive and accepting of other cultures, yet in the same breath you want basically the opposite for Israelis and palestinians.

Which is it? By your logic it would okay for Quebec to send Missiles into Ontario because it has a right to be sovereign.

The view you hold of Canada is all Palestinians want, and what the Lebanese HAD.

7/27/2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger Vincent Robidas a dit...

Excellent message. Je ne suis pas surpris de certains commentaires. Il est tellement facile d'acoller l'étiquette de «raciste» et d'«anti-sémite» à quelqu'un qui remet en question les décisions de l'État hébreux.

Certains juifs, notamment du Congrès juif, ont souvent tendance à l'hyperbole. Il serait temps qu'il cesse d'avoir des réactions épidermiques à chaque critique de l'État israëlien.

À lire SB, tous ceux qui sont d'origines italienne ou allemande, ne peuvent pas critiquer Israël en raison de leur période fasciste? C'est d'un ridicule consommé!

Il est temps que les défenseurs des juifs et de l'État hébreux fassent la distinction entre le judaïsme, le peuple juif (ô peuple élu!) et l'État israëlien. Les débats s'en porteront mieux.

7/27/2006 12:03 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 12:09 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 12:13 PM  
Blogger Thomas a dit...

A good post Antonio. I am glad that at least some Liberal bloggers are taking a stand to defend the Arab community against another round of barbaric Zionist attacks.

Thomas @ thelongwalk.ca

7/27/2006 12:15 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

SB is a wingbat racist. It's amazing that she is allowed in a classroom. It's also amazing that she can't spell Israel correctly.

As for Antonio's dodge on anti-semitism, let's just suffice it to say that however you want to define semites and thus anti-semitism, no small amount of opposition to Israel is rooted in a dislike of Jews. I am not ascribing these views to you, only arguing that your definitional dodge doesn't carry much water.

7/27/2006 12:16 PM  
Blogger Jason Townsend a dit...

Antonio: It's always tough to get into discussing the conflicts around Israel without contentious debate; I don't think I agree with your critique of Zionism and Israeli history more broadly, but I don't doubt your good faith. Certainly the accusations of supporting Hezbollah and so forth are ludicrous.

7/27/2006 12:43 PM  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Shoshana, why are you accusing Antonio's grandfather of deporting Jews? That's like me accusing your ancestors of killing Jesus Christ, because I am a Christian.

But you see, I'm civilized and rational and don't go belittling people based on what their ancestors' country of origin did.

Shoshana, you are racist and I can't believe you actually work for the Liberals. Your membership should be permanently revoked for your comments you've made about Italians. You've lost what little credibility you ever had. If you have kids, I hope they'll marry Italians.

7/27/2006 12:56 PM  
Blogger Jay a dit...

Someone needs to talk with Cherniak about getting that racist bigot Shoshana from the blog roll. I cannot believe such racial intolerance spewing from her. Calling someones ancestors murderers and insinuating that Canadian born descendents are the same? I fail to see how she could even remain as a liberal blogger here. She is obviously not cut out to be a liberal. Unfortunately it seems she drank Harpers kool aid.

7/27/2006 1:46 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Dear Morons:

Here is the definition of Anti-semitism (as opposed to you morons who look up the word "semite" or "Semetic")


Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution.

7/27/2006 2:27 PM  
Blogger Red Tory a dit...

Peter -- Don't dare criticize her spelling or you’ll get a lecture on how you’re a repressed, anti-feminist Nazi. Just warning you.

7/27/2006 2:29 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

So wait a second, by that definition, discrimination against all other semitic people who are not jewish is not amti-semitism? Some has got to give here...

7/27/2006 2:31 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Antonio:

That is correct, the UN, the International Community all accept the term "anti-semitism" as referrring to Jews.

Islamaphobia is the term referring to hatred of Muslims.

Perhaps now that you have been explained how it is , you will "give" and admit you were in error.

Grow up!

7/27/2006 2:48 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

From another source:


Definition: Anti-Semitism is the political, social, and economic activities and hatred directed against Jews. The term is now used to denote anti-Judaic acts or sentiments based on any grounds, including religious ones. The word anti-Semitism was coined in 1879 to denote hostility only towards Jews.

7/27/2006 2:50 PM  
Blogger Manitoba Liberal a dit...

It is no surprise that Quebec is filled with hatred of Jews.

It is one of the common threads running throughout the provinces history. The massive immigration of French speaking Arabs to Quebec over the past 30 years has just allowed it to grow past the former Catholic Nationalist anti-semitism that is rooted in Quebecois society.

We as the Liberal Party have to make sure we are not a welcome place for any people that question the absolute right of Isreal to exist and defend itself.

7/27/2006 2:59 PM  
Blogger ottlib a dit...

Accusations of anti-semitism were inevitable with this post.

It is damned difficult to defend all of the actions of the Israeli GOVERNMENT so many of its supporters bring out the anti-semitism card to try to muzzle any criticism. It is one of the constence of the universe.

Shoshana, the more I read your posts and your comments the more convinced I am that you have what my wife calls a "borderline personality".

7/27/2006 3:00 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

65% of Canadians support Isral's actions.

Not really a difficult argument to make!

7/27/2006 3:04 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Ok I give

Anti-Semitism is meant to define discrimination against Jews (including Slavic, Sephardic and oll other Jews), and not other Semitic peoples.

Does my objection to the term mean I have a "hatred" towards them?

I think not.

7/27/2006 3:10 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Antonio:

My father lost 3/4 of his family in Europe at the hands of anti-semitism.

Our family celebrations, holiday-time, they are all small affairs. I often think of the number of auncles, aunts, cousins that I would have been able to enjoy those events.
So when someone, like you, tries to diminish an accepted understanding of what that evil means it is deeply offensive.

You are young and you are naive. You will grow in breadth of mind and you will understand that contributing to xenophobia in the way that you have demonstrated in your most recent posts is foolhardy and serves to isolate you.

You can critique the actions of Israel all you want but your words have gone beyond.

7/27/2006 3:21 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Manitoba Liberal

I have never denied the right of Israel to exist. N E V E R.

Israel also has the right to defend itself against terrorism and other foreign invaders including the 'evil' United Nations and the 'dastardly' Red Cross (that last part of that sentence is sarcasm, be warned)

"Quebec is filled with hatred towards Jews"

That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard. PURE discrimination. I have yet to say anything negative towards the jewish people.

However, this post has seen my grandparents get called murderers for being Italian, my province called xenophobic and anti-semitic, and me being called a racist bigot for criticizng the government of Israel

NEWSFLASH:
Not all Israelis are Jewish.
Not all Jews are Israeli.
The government of Israel does not act on the behalf of the Jewish religion.
The Zionist movement was a Jewish movement but did not include ALL Jews.
Opposition to the Israeli government is not opposition to the existence of Israel.
Using racism to defend the Israeli government's actions is shameful.

Can somebody please quote anything I have said that discriminates against Judaism or the Jewish people? You will be hard-pressed. I am not a racist.

7/27/2006 3:25 PM  
Blogger foottothefire a dit...

Time to cool this thing down ... the Canadian way.
Hockey has come to and end in Israel .... for the moment anyway....
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=2485

7/27/2006 3:43 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

"The Zionist movement was a Jewish movement but did not include ALL Jews"

This is the proof of your anti-Israel views.

Those who did not support the zionist movement were a small, small group of ultra-religious jews who did so for theological reasons and not political or national. Some communist jews, who rejected the notion of "peoplehood" also rejected zionism (they no longer exist is any significant numbers).

No one of any intellectual standing questions that the overwhelming, vast, vast majority (95% plus) of jews in the world today recognize zionism as an integral part of Judaism.

Those who disagree with this deserve the label of anti-semite.

7/27/2006 4:05 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

I am not saying moving to Israel is wrong.

I stated that moving to an area and evicting people was an error in judgement. If people believed the Palestinians were going to pack up their bags and leave, they were being naive.

I was trying to indicate that a critique of the Zionist movement was not a critique of Judaism. I presume we can at least agree on that point.

7/27/2006 4:23 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/jamieson/279019_robert27.html

7/27/2006 4:32 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Let's take a harder look at Antonio's motivations for writing this post. I think it's clear they are not because he has a dislike or hatred of Jews. So, let's put aside the anti-semitism charge for now. It's not helpful and I actually think it's unfair in this instance. Besides, there's probably enough in his post to attack on other grounds.

As for anti-semitism in Quebec, it has a more ugly history here than in other provinces, and it needs to be confronted head on, particularly in Montreal. Ignoring it doesn't help at all.

7/27/2006 4:38 PM  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Manitoba Liberal, Grit Heart, Shoshana and company

You can critize the Israeli government and still support Israel and the Jewish people. Some Jews were protesting in Israel yesterday against the extent of the military action in recent days. Does that make them anti-semitic, even though they are Jewish and Israeli citizens?

More hateful things have been said about Italians than Jews in this blog. I have Italian blood, but I am not a fascist, a supporter of any fascist movement, or anything of that nature. And yes, I support Israel's right to exist and Judaism. To be accused of being biased because a country of origin was allied with fascism during World War Two 70 years ago is absolutely ridiculous, incredibly insensitive and, yes, racist.

And what is this bullshit of Quebec being anti-semitic? Prejudices exist EVERYWHERE. Manitoba Liberal, you have no clue about anything in Quebec, so stick to your own province's affairs, before spreading wild rumors of 'deep-rooted' anti-semitism becuase of the Catholics and Muslim immigrants. I can't believe you actually believe in what you said.

7/27/2006 4:52 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Cat-Mutant:

One only has to look at years and years of data to note that the views of Quebecers regarding Jews (as well as other minorities) is, unfortunately, very poor. Mantoba Liberal does not have to live in Quebec to understand the deep roted nature (and lingering aspects) of Quebec's anti-semitism.

As far as being critical of the Government of Israel, I have no problem with that. However, I ask you this question. How do you recognize and celebrate Israel's wonderful accomplishments? Have you attended an Israel Independance Day party? Have you celebrated Israel being the regions only vibrant democracy? Have you celebrated Israel's leadership in protecting gays and lesbians and having pride parades (the only country in the mideast to do so). Do you celebrate Israel's independant Judiciary and free press?

Critical of Israel'sgovernment, no problem! Let's see if you roecognize her achievments!

7/27/2006 5:34 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 5:45 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Cat mutant:

I live in Quebec, so I don't need any admonitions . Indeed, I go to work everyday in a building at the Universite of Montreal named after the renowned antisemite, Lionel Groulx, that great father of separatism.

Grit heart: I think you've largely hit this on the head. I find it passing strange how quick individuals are to point our Israel's various restrictions on property for non-Jews and other illiberal policies, while saying nothing of the states around it who are immeasurably more illiberal, undemocratic, and uncivil.

7/27/2006 5:48 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Antonio:

For the record, more Jews were displaced from their homes in Arab lands then were Arabs from within Israel's Green Line following statehood in '48.

The difference, Israel accomodated its refugees, the Arabs decided to keep theirs in camps to serve as pawns.

7/27/2006 6:00 PM  
Blogger Ottawa Liberal a dit...

"As far as being critical of the Government of Israel, I have no problem with that. However, I ask you this question. How do you recognize and celebrate Israel's wonderful accomplishments? Have you attended an Israel Independance Day party? Have you celebrated Israel being the regions only vibrant democracy? Have you celebrated Israel's leadership in protecting gays and lesbians and having pride parades (the only country in the mideast to do so). Do you celebrate Israel's independant Judiciary and free press?"


Why should I, as a Canadian, recognize Israel's "accomplishments"? It not like I celebrate Slovenia's or Iceland's "accomplishments"? Do you celebrate the accomplishments of other foreign countries? This is a ridiculous propostion for you to put forth. Israel does not mean shit to me, they're just like any other foreign country, although one that has managed to "inadevertently" kill eight of my countrymen despite being equipped with the latest precision guidance devices . If you deem this to be tantamount to anti-semitism, than so be it. Enough is enough; if daring to criticise Israel is the new anti-semitism, I'm a proud anti-semite. As a firm believer in freedom of thought and speech, I will no be intimidated into silence by fanatical anti-Arab/Muslim Zionists like Shoshana, Michelle, and Grit Heart. To borrow a phrse from anti-Palestinian "Liberal" Warren Kinsella, I am not afraid!

7/27/2006 6:12 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 6:15 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

Lebanon is a democrary...or maybe a democracy is only vibrant when the results of the election favour your point of view? Go read some facts before mentioning anything (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon#Politics)

HEZBOLLAH WAS DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED AND HAD 12 SEATS IN PARLIAMENT! 2 were cabinet ministers...

Gay parades where starting (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5019908.stm), hezbollah's support was starting to wane....All the Lebanese are united now against this israeli savagry on ALL THE LEBANESE NATION AND NOT THE HEZBOLLAH!

Your Israeli state has destroyed 15 years of reconstruction. 6 billion dollars of damage on civilian infrastructure. 4 billion dollars of lost revenues for this summer (on a 25 billion GDP economy). Israel also caused one of the worst environmental disaster in the mediterranean which btw affect israeli shores (www.bloggingbeirut.com)

The worst part of this is that next time we will have elections, more people would support hezbollah.

Israel will pay a heavy price...the suffering and deaths of all those innocent people will cause more hate towards the israeli state. Expect more people blowing themselves up in tel aviv. Where is the voice of reason? What happened to the "most vibrant democracy" in the middle east? If killing 500 innocent civilians (on the 600 killied) makes a democracy "vibrant" then I don't want to have anything to do with that democracy.

Hezbollah acts were condemned by alot of the different lebanese communities, but the Israeli's savage response changed everything.

My grandfather used to own buildings in Haifa and had to leave everything when Israeli settlers where throwing rocks on my dad and his brothers and sisters.

This is ridiculous, I hope the lebanese people will get justice after this massacre.

7/27/2006 6:20 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

I find the nature of the comments on Antonio's post simply revolting. It is a sad day when one can no longer voice legitimate opinions without being called racist or antisemitic--or worse, being told that they do not have the right to an opinion because of their ancestry--notably by people who claim to defend the right to freedom of speech and democracy. Shoshana is guilty of the same attitude Nazi Germany had towards European Jews.
Also, I have a very low opinion of those who form sentences relying exclusively upon definitions found in a dictionary. We are all aware of the usage of the word antisemitism, but in English, as with any other language, one must consider the roots of a word when pondering which, among a list of synonyms, is appropriate. As such, claiming a Semite to be antisemitic in order to signify that he or she hates Jews, while technically correct, is poor use of English.

Cheers!

7/27/2006 7:38 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Fady:

If you want to argue for restraint from Israel toward the state of Lebanon you probably should not begin from the premise that Hezbollah is in cabinet and is therefore legitimate. The fact that this conflict was initiated by a militia of a governing party brings Lebanon pretty close to being a failed state. When that happens, all bets are off.

7/27/2006 7:41 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Ottawa Liberal:

Eight Canadians were killed in Lebanon because Hizbollah used them as human shields.

Israel does not take aim at civilians. When they are killed, Israel expresses sorrow and regret (Olmert conveyed this directly to our Prime Minister).

On the other hand, Hizbollah dilebratley aims into population centres. When they score a hit and kill civilians through rockets or suicide bombers they celebrate by distributing candies to the children.

That is the difference.

Fady, you are correct that Israel will pay a heavy price. Each soldier and civilian that is killed is deeply mourned. None are promised 70 virgins in heaven. None go to their deaths screaming god is great. Respect for human life is paramount. Amongst Hamas and Hizbollah there is little concern with sparing the life of another let alone their own.

7/27/2006 7:43 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady,

Canada and Israel share the same values of democracy, social justice, an independant judiciary, a free press.

That is why 65% of canadians support Israel in the present circumstance.

It is a struggle between the forces of western civilization and international terorism. The same struggle our troops battle in Afgahnistan and the Americans felt on 9/11.

The worls needs to be rid of Hizbollah and Hamas.

7/27/2006 7:47 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

You talk about a clash of western civilization against international terrorism and yet you forget why Hezbollah was created in the first place? 18,000 Lebanese killed when Sharon invaded in 1982, Beirut destroyed. People wanted revenge. And yes it is still a big part of Lebanese society and now even a bigger one. People who never supported Hezbollah are supporting it now. Go check it out for yourself: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1219678,00.html

The September 11 attacks? Bin Laden justified it as payback for all the israeli destruction of Lebanon in 1982.

The taleban in Afghanistan? Weren't they trained by the US so they can get rid of the soviets.

There is a reaction for every action and what is happening today will create a new generation of "terrorists". If this insanity does not stop now, Israel will never live peacefully and extremists will take advantage of this.

Terrorism isn't born out of nowhere. Have people forgotten about the bombing by jewish extremists of the King David Hotel?
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.arcview.php?clid=3&id=151512&usrsess=1

7/27/2006 8:09 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Apparently Israel is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

7/27/2006 8:12 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

Your facts are so wrong!

1. Bin Laden stated that his 9/11 attacks were because of AMerican presence on Saudi soil.

2. "Sharon killed 18,000 in Lebanon"! Even you are not that stupid.

3. King David Hotel. Seat of the British Command in Palestine. Blown up by the Stern Gang. However (and here is the clincher), the Bristish were forewarned and given 30 minutes to evacuate the hotel. That is the difference in the humanity.

7/27/2006 8:16 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

bin Laden's stated motivations are irrelevant.

7/27/2006 8:16 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

The last two posts by grit heart and peter loewen indicate to me that they do not grasp the full complexity of the matter. I am by no measure acting as an apologist for the Lebanese government: those who know me well also know me to be a vociferous critic of the Siniora government and an outspoken adversary of Hizballah. However, let us go ahead and examine a few of Israel's demands.

1. Application of UNSCR 1559: It is pure hypocrisy for a State that has not respected a single resolution in its 58-year history to ask another State to respect its international legal obligations.

2. Disarmament of Hizballah: To disarm Hizballah, it is clear that the Lebanese government will have to use force. Now, Lebanon has a very weak army that it has struggled to rebuild after a war that saw the entire military apparatus collapse. What people commenting here choose to ignore is that a large proportion of the Lebanese army is Shiite Muslim, and that these soldiers allegiances lie with Hizballah. Asking them to disarm a milita to whom they are sympathetic will cause them to desert and may ignite a conflict within the Lebanese army.

3. Deployment of the Lebanese army to South Lebanon: see no. 2 above.

4. Exclusion of Hizballah from Parliament and government: That is easier said than done (although I myself would very much like to see it happen). Banning a group with such political clout will result in civil war. Besides, many analysts believe Hizballah capable of staging a coup and seize control of the government. Now, what would Israel prefer? The status quo, a militia throwing a few dozen rockets haphazardly into northern Israel, or a full-fledged war with the Islamic Republic of Lebanon, backed by all which is made available to such a State?

We cannot expect the government of Lebanon to make Israel happy, at its own expense. Israel's demeasured response makes me believe that it may possibly have other motives behind its military offensive, although I hope for everyone's sake that we are rid of Hizballah ASAP.

7/27/2006 8:17 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

Grit don't argue before bringing facts:

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1030-05.htm

7/27/2006 8:20 PM  
Blogger Phil Larouche a dit...

There is one thing that really irritates me with any criticism of the State of Israel. When you voice your opinion on the governement of Israel, you are therefore called an anti-semite, racist and a whole bunch of other insults.

The next step is that you will be accused of denying the existence of the Shoah. The Jews have suffered as many other people have suffered before.

When there were problems in Ukraine before the last election, people weren't accused of denying that the Ukrainians suffered the famine-genocide in 1932.

Why are the people denouncing the actions of the Israeli government accused of denying the Shoah.

The Shoah happened, it was terrible. Any genocide is terrible. We must make sure that we are able to prevent genocides in the future. But the suffering of a people in the past doesn't justify its actions now. It's like justifying a murderer because he raised in a violent family.

7/27/2006 8:25 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

Not to worry,

Israel has every intention of disarming Hizbollah. It also has the support of the international community in doing so. It probably also has the support of Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the PA in getting rid of Hizbollah.


Points 2 and 3 will be taken care of by Israel because Lebanon has proven incapable of asserting its own sovreignty.

7/27/2006 8:25 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

You have sourced a quote from a left-wing website, which among other things supports Iran right to build up nuclear capabilities.

Shame on you!

7/27/2006 8:28 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Grit Heart, the incapability of a State to exert its own power on its citizens does not justify other States, unasked, to act on its behalf. By claiming such, you are guilty of imperialism.

7/27/2006 8:28 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Tarek:

Your points have demonstrated quite clearly that Lebanon is bordering on being a failed state. You've conceded that it has a militia in its borders it cannot control and cannot or will not disarm. And the threat that militia poses is to Israel. If Lebanon cannot or will not disarm Hezbollah, then Israel is probably within its rights to do it. There's no doubt the consequences of this will be widespread and devastating, and may not be worth the effort in the long term. But, that is now Israel's decision to make.

7/27/2006 8:32 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Grit Heart:

Next you will personally be accused of being a colonist.

7/27/2006 8:33 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

Not when the State (Israel) is subject to rocket attacks and having their soldiers kidnapped on their own territory.

Tarek, the nationas of the world have agreed that it constitutes an act of war. Even the Russians and Saudis side with Israel on that.

7/27/2006 8:33 PM  
Blogger Phil Larouche a dit...

A clarification :

"But the suffering of a people in the past doesn't justify its actions now."

I meant :

But the suffering of a people in the past doesn't justify the actions of a government now.

7/27/2006 8:34 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Your points have demonstrated quite clearly that Lebanon is bordering on being a failed state.

Perhaps, but it is not quite there yet. And no, I am sorry, it is not Israel's decision to make.

7/27/2006 8:35 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Tarek, the nationas of the world have agreed that it constitutes an act of war. Even the Russians and Saudis side with Israel on that.

Then why not take the war to where it really ought to be: Iran?

7/27/2006 8:35 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

and Syria.

7/27/2006 8:36 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

and Syria.

Agreed. Now go bomb Syria, and then let us have this discussion.

7/27/2006 8:37 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Tarek:

I realise that Syria and Iran are the real bad guys, but I can't imagine you'd be handing out candy if Israel bombed them tomorrow. And it doesn't take away from Israel's right to protect itself after an incursion across an international border. Hezbollah crossed the rubicon, so to speak, and the Lebanese government is close to being complicit. Israel has decided to retaliate, which is its right. you can debate the proportionality of their response, but you cannot in good faith deny their right to respond.

7/27/2006 8:40 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

THe site is left wing but was published previously in the LA times.

Read before talking.

7/27/2006 8:40 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

I don't bomb anyone. I am commenting on Israel's actions in the face of constant terrorism on two fronts by extremists who do not want peace.

Who has lost in all this, the average Palestinian. So close to Peace several years ago and then their national agenda highjacked by extremists.

The Arab people must rid themselves of their extreme elements. Then peace will come.

7/27/2006 8:42 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 8:44 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

Your arguments are infintile.

Who cares what propaganda is attributed to Bin Laden. If you want to belive that he waited 21 years to act against the United States because they supported Israel in '82, go ahead.

That doesn't justify your warped thesis that terrorism exists only because of Israel.

7/27/2006 8:45 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 8:46 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Hizbollah is pleased when civilians (even their own) get killed. It is all part of the Jihad, the greater purpose.

7/27/2006 8:47 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

I realise that Syria and Iran are the real bad guys, but I can't imagine you'd be handing out candy if Israel bombed them tomorrow. And it doesn't take away from Israel's right to protect itself after an incursion across an international border.

That is where you are wrong: I WILL be handing out candy if Israel bombed Iran or Syria tomorrow (or the day after, or the day after that). And no, I do not deny Israel's right to defend itself. I am merely questioning whether killing 500 civilians (How can 500 be considered collateral dammage? Seriously, what kind of a bubble do both of you live in?) actually counts as self-defense.

7/27/2006 8:47 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 8:48 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

If my facts didn't matter in the first place...why were you trying to prove them wrong?

You definitely will not be able to get rid of extremists by bombing them and killing innocent civilians and we're seeing that everywhere.

7/27/2006 8:48 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

The civilians get killed because Hizbollah hides behind them.

Do you not get it??!!

7/27/2006 8:48 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 8:49 PM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Tarek:

First, apologies. I should not question your view on things I don't know, and I did.

Second, I am glad you concede Israal's right to respond.

Third, 500 civilians is certainly tragic and devastating. And it is certainly inflated by the comingling of Hezbollah military installations and civilian infrastucture (which places the blame on Hezbollah under internaitonal law). Proportionality is hard to establish, and we ought to be careful to accuse Israel (or any state) of disproportionality before it is clear that civilian targets were purposefully targeted.

7/27/2006 8:49 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

The civilians get killed because Hizbollah hides behind them.

Say a serial killer murders 20 people, and then hides behind your mother, using her as a shield. The police absolutely need to take him out. Instead of doing what they need to do in order to keep your mother safe, they use a high-power rifle and shoot right through her in order to get that bad guy. How would you feel?

7/27/2006 8:49 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

As ugly as it is, you do get rid of extremists by bombing them and their infastructure.

7/27/2006 8:50 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

As ugly as it is, you do get rid of extremists by bombing them and their infastructure.

Yes, because that is how Trudeau got rid of the FLQ. That is how Spain is dealing with ETA. That is how France is dealing with its own extremists. That is what has always been done. Were the extremists within Israel, I am sure Israel's stance towards them would be much more conciliating. How can one expect Lebanon to act otherwise?

7/27/2006 8:54 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

Hiding behind civilians is cowardly.

Israel puts its soldiers in harms way to protect civilians. They also drop leaflets urging civilians to move away from areas about to be bombed. They have used text messaging to cellular phones of Lebaneese civilians. They broadcast, in Arabic, over radio to warn civilians to flee from sites about to be bombed.

Hizbollah purposefully hides in civilian villages with their rocket launchers, sometimes on civilian rooftops and backyards. They then aim their rockets to the population centres of Israel.

A reasonable person, incorporating the values of our western democracies can easily pick right from wrong.

7/27/2006 8:55 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/27/2006 8:56 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Excuse me, Grit Heart, but I was in Lebanon until last Saturday. I have heard of all these tracts that were dropped, all these messages: but I myself have not seen a single tract fall from the sky, have not received a single message on my cell phone, have not heard a single announcement from Israeli sources on TV or on radio!

How can you speak of things when you have not experienced them?

7/27/2006 8:57 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Israel deals with its extremists.

It jails them.

It bans then from running for Parliament.

It forcefully removes them from their homes when they are built illegally.

7/27/2006 8:57 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

Are you serious about your comments?

Don't let me start with the countless number of Lebanese lives vanished by actually following these orders. I'm not afraid of getting sources for that either.

7/27/2006 8:58 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

Here is a quote from a BBC report on the dropping of leaflets:

"Israel issued a specific warning to civilians in 14 villages, telling them to leave by Saturday evening.




Mid-East crisis map

The warnings issued to 14 villages came a day after Israel dropped leaflets warning Lebanese civilians to flee a broad swathe of the south. "

7/27/2006 9:02 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

Not sure what you are reffering to.

7/27/2006 9:03 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

The following quote comes from National Public radio in the USA.

"For days, Israel has been broadcasting radio warnings in Arabic to Lebanon, ordering civilians to evacuate to the south of the country.

The message has also been printed in Arabic on leaflets and scattered across the countryside by Israeli aircraft.

One leaflet reads: Because of terrorist acts against the state of Israel which come from your villages, the Israeli Army must respond to these attacks. For your security, you must leave your villages immediately. Signed, The State of Israel.

In the coastal town of Tyre, residents say they they've received similar warnings in the form of phone calls with a recorded message in Arabic ordering them to flee."


Perhaps you did not know this before. Israel does not want civilians hurt or killed and takes measures, as demonstrated, to urge them to leave.

7/27/2006 9:05 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

I have heard all of this, but I have not seen any of it personally. All I have seen are Israeli warplanes and the bombs they drop off.

7/27/2006 9:07 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Tarek:

It appears that many Lebaneese have seen the leaflets, received the cell messages and heard the radio broadcasts.

If you scan the press you will read many accounts of it.

7/27/2006 9:10 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Obviously, not all Lebanese have. Because a few have received warning, you cannot assume that everyone was warned.

7/27/2006 9:12 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

Yeah, Israel is nice and innocent. They do not want to kill so many innocent civilians they also don't want the Lebanese troops to deploy on the border and yet we bomb a lebanese logistics army barracks.

7/27/2006 9:13 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

Actually, Israel very much wants the Lebaneese army to deploy at its border. That would be where their army should be.

7/27/2006 9:17 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

sorry, have got to leave now. Can continue in the morning.

7/27/2006 9:17 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

http://www.citizen.co.za/index/article.aspx?pDesc=20285,1,22

http://www.kobtv.com/index.cfm?viewer=storyviewer&id=26899&cat=NMTOPSTORIES

5 minute notice? And people who left with trucks full of people just when the leaflets dropped got bombed on their way up north.

7/27/2006 9:19 PM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

oops I meant Israel wants the army deployed and yet they bomb a Lebanese army logistics barracks.

7/27/2006 9:21 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Fady:

There a re tons of other reports of the leaflets being dropped and radio broadcasts being made continously all day.

The point is that Israel takes these actions to avoid civilian deaths. Hizbollah aims directly at civilians.

That in of itself tells an important story.

7/27/2006 10:15 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

The point is that Israel takes these actions to avoid civilian deaths. Hizbollah aims directly at civilians.

We are not defending Hizballah. Why can't you understand that? In that sentence, you are comparing Israel's actions to that of a terrorist organisation! Just because I condemn Israel's tactics does not mean I condone Hizballah's!

Seriously!

7/27/2006 10:19 PM  
Blogger Jason Cherniak a dit...

Alex, you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

7/27/2006 10:27 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Hizbollah is the root of the problem Tarek.

That is who must be dealt with.

If Hizbollah had the power it would destroy Israel, make no mistake about that.

If Israel laid down her arms for one moment, she would be finished.

If Hizbollah lays down its arms peace will beak-out.

7/27/2006 10:29 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

No, Hizballah is a facade. The root of the problem is in Iran. Go look there.

7/27/2006 10:47 PM  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...

Thanks Jason for the very constructive comment. Maybe you could elaborate a little bit more.

I have no idea of what I've said I don't know what I am talking about. Most of what I talk about in that comment are personal experiences...

Please clarify.

Alex

7/28/2006 12:04 AM  
Blogger Manitoba Liberal a dit...

I need to aplogize to Antonio for my earlier remarks. Comenting on the deep roots of anti-semitism in Quebec, I did not mean to imply that Antonio or anyone other Quebecois are personaly anti-semetic, I just wanted to bring up the point that Quebec politics and society has a long history of anti-semtic actions.

7/28/2006 12:56 AM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Manitoba Liberal, while it may be true that there is much latent racism in this province (it is certainly not limited to Jews, or Semites for that matter), your comments are irrelevant to the scope of the present discussion. Why does the word "antisemitism" have to be brandished every time someone critices the government of Israel?

Grow up, all of you!

7/28/2006 1:01 AM  
Blogger decoin a dit...

Bang on Antonio - the Jewish entity is the source of the world wild problems faced by mankind conspiracy or not. There must be some solution finally to this and the LPC will be part of that once it is restored to power.

7/28/2006 1:07 AM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7/28/2006 1:43 AM  
Blogger Fady a dit...

It is obvious that from the previous comments and all the arguments we have been debating show that the situation is much more complex than it seems.

You cannot blame one party for not wanting peace or accuse them of being terrorists. Hatred and recent history proves there is a root cause for all this extremism. The regimes in Iran and syria only grow stronger since they exploit the situation. Hezbollah does the same. That also means bombing Syria or Iran will not help.

If Israel wants peace, they have to fight extremism by winning the trust of the arabs. We have constantly seen the Israelis targeting political or religious extremists leaders in the past which did not necessarily help their cause (Yassin assasination for example, or the killing of the previous Hezbollah leader in 1992)

Israel had no success at all by killing or bombing people and innocent civilians (with all these problems today). More hate and distrust will grow against this state especially what it is doing now.

My parents are catholic, but I cannot stand seeing my muslim shiite brothers being massacred with no mercy or regret at all. You have united all of Lebanon against Israel when you started bombing all of the civilian infrastructures which include 64 bridges, milk factories, paper and tissue factories, airports, civilian houses, red cross ambulances, highways, power plants, telephone lines, army barracks, oil tanks, telecommunication towers, the new lighthouse built by Hariri in central beirut, sewage plants, ports, a church even...the list is endless.

Alot of Lebanese were sympathetic with Israel before this and the sunnis, druze and the christians wanted to get rid of hezbollah. Instead israel wanted to "defend itself" and destroyed all of the hard work people put in the last 15 years. The government worked extremely hard for the tourism industry this year, expecting a record number of tourists and a strong boost to a already weak and damaged economy.

New groups are created and Israel bombs them again and this all grows out to be one hell of a vicious circle.

There is also a huge problem with racism in Israel against the "arabs". And the prime minister of your country seriously has issues when he says "We understand that palestinian lives are important, but Israeli lives are even more important" after accidentally killing 7 children and the two parents of the same family in Gaza 4 weeks ago.

Thinking it is one thing but saying it is a completly different matter and like other Lebanese, I have lost complete sympathy for Israel for what it has done. I support its right to defend itself, but this is completely outrageous!

Those innocent civilians (half of them innocent children) deserved a much more than israeli phosphorous bombs burning their whole body black.

I have seen from one of the comments before that one person suggested that the King David Hotel bombing was much "more humane"....which I find completly ridiculous, they tell us not to condone or justify Hezbollah's actions and yet they justify terrorism by jewish extremists.

Even if I don't like it or sometimes don't understand it, I will accept what the shiites believe in because they have the right to do so in a democratic state. And Shiites are a big part of Lebanese society.

They say that hezbollah committed an act of war by kidnapping the two soldiers and people seem to forget how many times Israeli F16s violate Lebanese airspace (at least 3000 times since 2006 and before this thing started). Is this by itself not an act of war?

As little girls in Israel laugh, play and write their names on Tank Shells "From Israel and Daniele" and send it off to some poor "terrorist" children in Lebanon. My heart fills with sadness and hatred.

And then they tell the Lebanese they want to "help them" and they want their democracy to "flourish" and then they destroy everything. And then they ask the most naive question:

Why in the world do they hate us so much?

7/28/2006 3:01 AM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

"My parents are catholic, but I cannot stand seeing my muslim shiite brothers being massacred with no mercy or regret at all." -Tarek


What kind of statement is that??

Israel massacres muslims??

Choose your words more carefully.!

7/28/2006 7:38 AM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

"They say that hezbollah committed an act of war by kidnapping the two soldiers and people seem to forget how many times Israeli F16s violate Lebanese airspace (at least 3000 times since 2006 and before this thing started). Is this by itself not an act of war?"
-Tarek


No, Tarek that does not constitute an act of war.

7/28/2006 7:40 AM  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

Decoin's comments are beyond the pale, and they demonstrate the rule that whenever you talk about Israel there will be some whackjob who comes along and let's us know that the Jews are the roots of all problems. Who is this racist?

7/28/2006 8:21 AM  
Blogger Sinestra a dit...

It's positive that Manitoba Liberal apologised for calling Quebec a hotbed of anti-semitism. There's been a lot of discrimination in the past, certainly. One thing I have noticed, though, is a deep hatred of Muslims among certain communities and no reluctance to express it.

7/28/2006 9:49 AM  
Blogger James Bowie a dit...

Antonio, is this your new record?

7/28/2006 10:16 AM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Grit Heart, you attributed two quotes to me that I did not write.

Shame on you!

7/28/2006 12:20 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

yes James

this is double the belinda fiasco and almost cost me my career. My friends now call me a political sado-masochist

7/28/2006 1:28 PM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Sorry Tarek,

The quotes were Fady's.

Nothing for me to be "ashamed" about. I made an error in who I was quoting.

Grow up.

7/28/2006 5:49 PM  
Blogger Tarek a dit...

Funny you made the same mistake twice...

7/28/2006 5:59 PM  
Blogger Quantum33 a dit...

And so ends this torrid saga of comments which has contained no real discussion, and mostly acrimonious reasoning and name-calling. Good Riddance!

I am however curious how Middle Eastern issues may affect the leadership race?

7/29/2006 2:08 AM  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Dion in Atlantic Canada today said that we should side with Lebanon because they are French speaking!

7/29/2006 9:51 PM  
Blogger s.b. and grit heart are Douchebags a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/02/2006 1:44 AM  
Blogger s.b. and grit heart are Douchebags a dit...

First of all let me start out by saying that I am Jewish. I think the point of Antonio's blog was to provide some insight into how other parts of the world view the current actions of the state and to perhaps educate the blog readers as to some of our history.... although some points are incorrect. If you want to make a correction to the blog, then do it. This blog is coming from one of the most free-thinking and politically correct countries in the world so if you think the Canadians are racist, then how must everyone else feel? No where in Antonio's blog did he mention support for any terrorist organization. s.b.'s first comments were so ridiculous, ignorant and racist I decided to join this blog just to tell him what a fuckwit he is. It seems that no one can even comment without s.b, grit heart or Michelle saying that everyone is anti-Semitic. It seems to me that all of the racist and ignorant comments are coming from them. Before telling everyone else to get an education, I suggest that you get one first. You embarrass me.

8/02/2006 11:26 AM  
Blogger robbinshood a dit...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

8/11/2006 10:58 AM  

Post a Comment

<< Home