August 25, 2006

Hopefully, the Crusade is Over

Let us survey the damage…This week led by Warren Kinsella, many of the pro-Israeli military crowd took it upon themselves to evict any anti-semitism from the Liberal Party. It all started here on Fuddle Duddle. I read Thomas Hubert’s comment. I didn’t remove it because I do not remove any comments (unless it is spam). In Canada we may disagree with people’s opinions freely and besides, I told him myself the comment was dumb.

I had truly forgotten Thomas’ position on the YLCBC exec. Otherwise, I would have convinced him to remove it as it was not the opinion of the YLCBC what he was saying. The boy is 17. I have since explained to him what was wrong with what he said. He agrees it is inflammatory and based mostly on rhetoric, and bad rhetoric at that. At 17, nobody deserves to be dragged over the coals. The crusaders did not blink.

Then there is Borys. I also feel bad for Borys. He was simply misunderstood. Rumour had it one of Bob Rae’s senior Ontario people was with Borys (I wonder if John Mraz watched Borys light himself on political fire?)…man if there was ever a time to not be misquoted, it was when the Crusaders had their verbal swords drawn and ready. Either way, Borys wanted Hezbollah off the list. Now, rather than saying Borys should quit because he supports a different view than the official Liberal position and his responsibilities as a critic dictate otherwise, we tore him to shreds.

I still believe Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. However, I also believe the IRA is a terrorist organization. Yet, the United States and the British both worked out a deal with Sinn Fein, a branch of the IRA. They negotiated with a terrorist organization then…is the Good Friday Peace Agreement illegitimate?

Also, the leading country in the International Force, Italy, does not support the view that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Neither does the UN, who negotiated directly with Hezbollah to craft the peace agreement. I always believed Canada should support whatever the UN does. I think Jean Chretien made that pretty clear. In terms of our list at home, it basically means anybody deemed to be funding this organization or aiding them will immediately have their assets frozen and/or seized. I agree with that, keep Hezbollah on the list. We don’t want Canadian money sent over there to blow shit up. As for never negotiating with them…Borys, Canada never negotiates with Hezbollah or Lebanon or Israel anyway, let the UN do it. Your idea was slightly misplaced.

To quote Mr. Kinsella, well his grandma, "Once you've decided to clean out one toilet," said she, "you may as well clean out all the toilets." I could not agree more. No use in getting our hands dirty twice. We got rid of discrimination against Jews, now lets work on other discrimination. I emailed Warren Kinsella Shoshanna Berman’s comments toward my Italian Heritage, saying she deserved just as much to be forced to resign for what she said…no response…but I don’t worry, he must have been on the other crusade at the time…Come on Warren, time to do what you say.

Then there is Jason Cherniak. The E-Crusader! When brought a cause different than the Zionist one, the zeal tended to fade a little. While admitting being against civil marriage for gays was discriminatory, when asked if this form of discrimination warranted the same consequence as discrimination against Jews, immediate resignation from the party, offered this response: "While I might argue in five years that people who oppose same sex marriage don't belong in the Party at all, we are not yet at that stage." If that was not enough, he offered more. "We all need to recognize that the right to same sex marriage is a very new concept. We need to give people time to get used to it."

In a recent email conversation with a journalist who reads my blog, we discussed the 5-year statue of limitations on discrimination against homosexuals. Her exact comments were “I hope Jason never runs for Parliament.” Double standards are what discrimination is all about Jason.

I call on Warren Kinsella and Jason Cherniak to turn their crusade against discrimination to all discrimination including those who discriminate against Italians like Shoshanna Berman and to those who discriminate against homosexuals like 32 Liberal MPs and a certain riding association president from Ontario who believes we should only deal with discrimination in 5 years. Apologies will suffice. I do not believe we should run anyone out of the party. I think that has gone on long enough in this party.

35 Commentaires:

Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...


The terrorist list does not prevent governments from negotiating with Hezbollah. What it prevents is fundraising and other activities related to the promotion of the group occurring in Canada.

Either Borys was ignorant and didn't know this - and thus probably had no business being in Lebanon if he can't grasp that - or he was convinced that because Hezbollah's pulls the odd tooth in addition to killing Israeli civilians and seeking a fundamentalist state that they should be allowed to go about their business in Canada. Either way, he made a major gaffe and his resignation was the right move. Now the witch hunt should move on. He's done his time.

As for the IRA, it remains illegal to send them money.

8/25/2006 2:40 p.m.  
Blogger James Bowie a dit...

Right on Antonio. High profile Canadian Generals are sent to negotiate with the IRA to help find peace in Ireland.

But I think we do need a way to get rid of politicians. In general, quoting their dumb statements and spreading them on the Internet seems to be effective.

8/25/2006 3:18 p.m.  
Blogger Jay a dit...

Sinn Fein leader Gerry adams was trolling for donations here in downtown Toronto last St. Patricks Day, so it appears if you divide up your party into wings you can still get donations for some aspects (kinda like dividing your grocery store in Nova Scotia to duck the sunday ban). Maybe Hizbollah should just change everything other than military to new names.

8/25/2006 3:52 p.m.  
Blogger Peter Loewen a dit...

James, do you think that the IRA should be able to raise money in Canada?

8/25/2006 3:59 p.m.  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Haha peter,

I made that exact point in my post.

I said Borys should have known beter for that reason

8/25/2006 4:25 p.m.  
Blogger andrewridgeley a dit...

We can, however, hope that you run for a seat one day.

This post was spot on.

8/25/2006 4:35 p.m.  
Blogger mbari hogun a dit...

Not to be pedantic, but the IRA didn't sign up to the Good Friday Agreement. It was taken for granted that Sinn Fein's participation would ensure an ongoing PIRA ceasefire.

As far as the IRA goes, I don't think they're a terrorist group on the same level as Hezbollah. While there were inevitably mistakes and atrocities in their latest campaign, nothing the Provos did matches Hezbollah's no-warning bombings targetting Argentina's Jewish community in the early 90s.

8/25/2006 6:50 p.m.  
Blogger Kyle Carruthers a dit...

Good post Antonio.

8/25/2006 7:15 p.m.  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

Antonio, you've done enough damage to the Liberal Party. Shut up already about how great Hezbollah is. You are wrong. Very Wrong.

8/25/2006 7:50 p.m.  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

Antonio asking you to examine your own heritage and Italy's history is not discrimination. Your comment is Liable and there is no incident or proof whatsoever that I have ever discriminated against Italians. Remove the accusation or I will speak to The Liberal Youth wing in Quebec and consider sueing you. But that's right this blog was already disaccociated from the Quebec youth wing for its liableous comments before. Perhaps I'll wait until you own something or have insurance to sue you. You just proven what an ignoramous you are Antonio.

8/25/2006 7:55 p.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...


Try to be honest and factual. Neither Thomas nor Borys were "run out of the Party". They resigned positions of authority and responsibility in the Party. That is a world of difference then being expelled from the caucus or Party. Alfonso Gagliano and Beryl Wajsmann have been expelled from the Party for their conduct in the Sponsorship Affair.
Borys and Thomas hold views that were incompatible with leadership roles in the Party.
As your buddy Coderre says, don't exaggerate!

8/25/2006 9:06 p.m.  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Ask Thomas Hubert if he feels run out of the party grit heart.

As for Boryx, I said they tore him to shreds, haha which they did.

Shoshana, you implied my family sent jews to concentration camps. It is extremely offensive and in my opinion, you do have to resign. Sue me if you want will lose.

8/26/2006 1:37 a.m.  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

Antonio that has nothing to do with discrimination against Italians so I assure you I would win. Watch what you say young man. You are way out of line and showing your ignornace more all the time. Your favorite MP's have been castigated in Vancouver and are coming home with their tails between their legs.

P.S. The crusades were about openning up spice routes to Asia. The Jews negotiated and traded between the Christians and the Muslims because they liked to slaughter each other so much. Try knowing something before you talk about it.

8/26/2006 8:48 a.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

SB is right about your caucus friends Coderre et al.

They were giving a royal lashing in Vancouver and return to Quebec with their tail between their legs.

Apparently Belinda told Brigitte that she had to get her act together and stop attending rallies with Hizbollah supporters.

Belinda had to answer for her staff's actions and she was none too pleased.

8/26/2006 10:00 a.m.  
Blogger Sinestra a dit...

Fuddle Duddle: the ultimate source for Grit Gossip. I hope Grit Heart and the others who are spreading private Liberal information will enjoy the next 5 years of CPC rule. Hence my suggestion to change the subject. You may think you're 'spanking' Antonio and the other Iggsters, but in reality you're damaging our Party and hurting all the candidates.

8/26/2006 11:03 a.m.  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

As long as Antonio and other liberal youth keep spewing support for Hezbollah, it is our responsibility to let them know it is unacceptable.

8/26/2006 12:06 p.m.  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...

Antonio never supported Hezbollah. In each and every post, he denounces the violence of Hezbollah.

You have two options :
1) Be honest and stop saying Antonio supports Hezbollah.
2) Sign up for reading lessons (or actually read Antonio before making false accusations)

8/26/2006 12:47 p.m.  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...

Oh and before you call me a Hezbollah supporter, I with to make everyone know that obviously I denounce killing of Israeli civilians by Hezbollah.

I also denounce the use of cluster bombs by IDF on civilian populations.


8/26/2006 12:50 p.m.  
Blogger s.b. a dit...

Alex I am not the only one who feels that Libertal Youth have been naive and out of line with their comments about Israel and Hezbollah. You both, as well as Brigitte, need to think a little harder before you do and say things.

8/26/2006 1:09 p.m.  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...


I would also say you need to think a little before making comments. Calling Antonio a fascist and asking him how many Jews his grandfather killed, because of his Italian heritage, is simply wrong, and yes, prejudice.

8/26/2006 1:52 p.m.  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...

Brigitte didn't SAY or DO anything wrong. Tell me what she did or said. Quote her.

You couldn't even recognize Brigitte if she walked by you on the street...


8/26/2006 3:39 p.m.  
Blogger Fady a dit...

S.B is a perfect example of double standards.

Criticizing the state of Israel including the use of cluster bombs in heavily civilian areas - Anti-Semitic and Pro-Hezbollah

Insulting other people about their heritage and falsely accusing any Italian that their grandparents were fascist annihilating jews- Perfect legitimate argument

"Hi, my name is SB and my vocabulary is limited to Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic Anti-Semitic !"

8/26/2006 11:12 p.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Brigitte marched in parade that had posters of Nasrallah and Hizbollah flags.

She was rightly told that she will not get Cotler's support for VP and Belinda told her to get her act together.

Alex, deny that things happened doesn't make your claim true.

It happened and Brigitte knows it.

She should have known better then to march in an anti-Israel parade.

8/27/2006 10:27 a.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...


while you are denouncilg cluster bombs (which the UN approves - remember civilians were told to leave the areas) perhaps you want to comments on the ball bearings and nails that are stuffed into Hizbollahs bombs.

8/27/2006 10:28 a.m.  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...


Brigitte is a close friend of mine and I have talked to her and you are making up a big story Grit Heart.

Contact me via e-mail, I will give you Brigitte's phone number, you could at least talk to her before spreading lies about her.

Are you willing to reveal your identity or are you too much of a coward ? You just want to continue to spread lies anonimously.

And BTW, Cotler signed her endorsement papers !

For your second comment, could you please provide me with a UN official that approves the use of cluster bombs on civilian populations ? Louise Arbour talked about war crimes committed by both IDF and Hezbollah.


8/27/2006 11:24 a.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Cotler has debunked the Arbour argument and myth. Read up.

8/27/2006 11:37 a.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...


Here is the Liberal Party position:

Israel, terrorism and the laws of war


ouise Arbour’s comments on international law as it applies to Israel’s military actions in Lebanon are as superficial as they are simplistic as a matter of law, and uninformed and misleading in their appreciation of and application to the facts.

First, it is a basic postulate of constitutional law that a government’s first duty – be it in Canada or in Israel – is the protection of its citizens. Second, and not unrelated, international law mandates the right, if not the duty, of self-defence against aggression, and the reasonable use of military force for that protective purpose, whether in response to an armed attack from another state or a terrorist act.

In the case at hand, the triggers for the present hostilities include the abduction of Israeli soldiers and the intentional and unprovoked rocket and missile bombardment across international boundaries of Israeli cities, towns and villages by Hezbollah and Hamas. The root cause is the unwillingness of these terrorist entities and their supporters, like Iran, to recognize the legitimacy of Israel within any boundaries. By their own avowed declarations, they are sworn to the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews wherever they may be – aided and abetted by their sponsors, Iran and Syria.

Accordingly, the declarations of Arbour, the United Nations’ high commissioner for human rights and a former Canadian Supreme Court justice, to the effect that international law “prohibits the bombardment of sites with military significance but resulting invariably in the killing of innocent civilians” is wrong as a statement of international law, and dangerously wrong in the application of that alleged international law principle to the facts at hand.

First, it is legitimate under international law to attack military targets located in cities, as long as every effort is made to reduce civilian casualties. Second, targets located in cities – including even apartment buildings, bridges and infrastructure – are legitimate military targets if they become the infrastructure from which war is waged, whether they are used to store and launch rockets and missiles, or to house and shield the terrorists themselves, or, as in the case of bridges, to transport both the terrorists and their weapons.

Indeed, Arbour’s statement of the law is not only simplistic as a matter of law, but dangerously so in this instance. For if Israel is to be prohibited from exercising its right of self-defence to counter the indiscriminate bombardment of its citizens, the whole of Israel becomes a “sitting duck” for Hezbollah’s and Hamas’ international criminality. It would transform international law – and Israel’s constitution or that of any democracy– into a suicide pact, with Hamas and Hezbollah able to commit war crimes with impunity.

Fortunately, the basic principles of international treaty and customary law respecting the reasonable use of force to repel aggression make it clear that the intentional co-mingling of combatants with civilians – or the embedding of combatants in civilian areas such that an attack on combatants would necessarily entail an excessively large number of casualties – is a flagrant violation of international humanitarian law. Hezbollah and Hamas are in violation of the laws of war when they launch missiles and rockets from villages and homes in order to immunize themselves from Israeli reprisals.

Accordingly, Hezbollah and Hamas are legally and morally responsible for any civilian casualty that results from any Israeli bombardment of areas containing missiles, rockets or the terrorists themselves, as long as the Israeli intention is for the purpose of protecting its civilians and Israel makes every effort to limit the civilian casualties in its response.

Admittedly, the right of self-defence in the response of Israel (or any other democracy) to such acts of aggression is not unlimited. The principle of “reasonableness” and “proportionality” in response still applies even when terrorist organizations like Hezbollah intentionally and indiscriminately target Israeli civilians and commit the war crime of using their own civilians as human shields. But then the test of “proportionality” for Israel (or any other democracy) – and the question of whether there has been excessive injury to civilians – must be assessed in the context of the intention and actions of both the aggressor and the responding state, including:

• The intentional and unprovoked acts of war across international boundaries by the terrorist organization to begin with;

• The use by the terrorist organizations of civilians as human shields to immunize themselves from an Israeli response;

• The avowed and publicly declared intention to destroy a state (Israel) and kill as many of its citizens as possible;

• The support for these terrorist organizations by states like Iran, which help recruit, train, supply, finance, harbour and instigate the terrorist movements, and which have their own genocidal ideology;

• The fact that terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah act as proxies or surrogates to the strategic objectives of Syria and Iran and which, in the case of Iran, include not only “wiping Israel off the map” but changing the map of the Middle-East itself;

• The intended and anticipated moral and strategic gains for Israel, which include better protecting from rocket and missile attacks more than two million Israelis – and with Tel Aviv in central Israel, protecting the country’s entire population of seven million – must also be factored into any judgments about the “proportionality” of Israel’s operations against Hezbollah.

It is painful and tragic to see hundreds of thousands of civilians fleeing the war zone; and the death of any innocent, Israeli, Palestinian or Lebanese, is a tragedy. But it must never be forgotten that there would have been no terrorist Hezbollah if UN Security Council Resolution 1559 had been complied with and enforced. There would have been no need for an Israeli response and no civilian casualties on any side if there had been no unprovoked act of aggression across international boundaries by both Hezbollah and Hamas to begin with. There would have been no Hezbollah capacity for an indiscriminate missile and rocket bombardment of the Israeli civilian population were it not for the Iranian and Syrian supply of some 15,000 of these deadly missiles and rockets to Hezbollah alone. There would have been nowhere near the number of Palestinian and Lebanese civilian casualties if Hamas and Hezbollah were not embedding themselves in the civilian population and using the civilians as human shields. And, as a matter of fundamental principle, there should no moral equivalence between the terrorist intention to maximize civilian casualties and the Israeli intention to minimize civilian casualties.

This discourse about the laws of war may, in the light of individual tragedies and civilian deaths, appear to be insufficiently sensitive to the human tragedies involved. Indeed, the “laws of war” may appear to be a contradiction in terms. But the very notion of laws of war and the theory of just wars presuppose that wars will still be fought, but that they must be fought justly.

In the end, Hamas and Hezbollah launched an unprovoked act of war against Israel. Israel had no choice but to respond to protect its citizens. The question is whether that response is just, and the answer has to be one rendered with full appreciation of the principles of international law and the facts and circumstances of the present conflict.

Irwin Cotler is the member of Parliament for Mount Royal and professor of law (on leave) at McGill University.

8/27/2006 12:06 p.m.  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Grit Heart

You are making up lies faster than you can type

If you are going to smear Brigitte Legault, as least identify yourself.

stop being a coward

8/27/2006 1:36 p.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...

Brigitte participated in the Montreal march against Israel, that is no lie.

She was wrong to have gone.

Antonio, it was you who spread lies about Brigitte and her salary with Belinda. You slagged her for a month or two, now she is your best friend.

8/27/2006 2:14 p.m.  
Blogger grit heart a dit...


You are one of the most destructive Liberal Bloggers.

The Young Liberals have already had to disassociate themeselves from you.

You have shown a tremendous anti-Israel bias and there are many of us out here that will repeatedly call you on your views.

8/27/2006 2:16 p.m.  
Blogger Alex Plante a dit...

Antonio never talked about Brigitte's salary with Belinda. Try to find a quote from him on that. Once again Grit Heart is LYING.

Brigitte didn't participate to a march against Israel.

I had received an invitation for that march and I'll let you read it.

Une manifestation aura lieu à Montréal ce dimanche 6 août à 13 h pour la
justice et la paix au Liban. Je vous invite vivement à y participer afin de
faire entendre nos voix.

It doesn't talk anywhere about either Israel or Hezbollah. So please stop spreading lies and have the guts to reveal your identity. Are you a coward ?


8/27/2006 2:20 p.m.  
Blogger Antonio a dit...


I never said Brigitte did not go

I was there with her. You call me destructive yet I never said anything about brigitte or her salary. I always said she never got anything, privately and publicly. But you can go ahead and keep on lying grit heart.

Here is the truth

Brigitte, myself, Melissa Pierre, Mokhtar Boushaba, and 20 000 other people participated in a march for peace calling on Israel and hezbollah to end all hostilities. The Liberal who spoke at the event was Denis Coderre, MP for Bourassa. He condemned Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. I could not have been more proud of Denis Coderre that day.

Being against Israeli military policy does NOT make me biased against Israel. I have studied the history of the region extensively and I have formed my own opinion.

We disassociated the blog because we did not want our writings about the race to be attached to the Youth Wing of the Party. Marc, Denise, Alex, and I chose to remove the association after my critique of Ms. Stronach's French started a slew of anonymous smears against Brigitte, myself, and many others.

So Grit Heart, there is the truth. Ask anyone to confirm it for you. Brigitte, Alex, anyone will tell you that is the story...not the twisted lies you invent to justify the hilarity of some of your statements.

Stop being a coward, we already know you are on the Brison campaign, it will not take long before we find out who you are and I am sure they will not take it lightly that you are smearing Brigitte.

8/27/2006 2:31 p.m.  
Blogger Phil Larouche a dit...

Bets are open to find out who Grit Heart is.

Odds :
0.5 to 1 : Richard Diamond
5 to 1 : Shoshana Berman
7 to 1 : Brison's Blackberry (sometimes you don't know what you are sending)
13.7 to 1 Stephen Harper
27.8 to 1 Antonio

Post your bets in the comments section.


8/27/2006 2:51 p.m.  
Blogger Concerned YL a dit...

How about this? All of you shut up. Instead of bickering at each other on a blog, you should either call each other and work it out (don't air your laundry in public), OR just shut up!

Either way, can you please take some time to focus your anger and attention to Mr. Harper. After all, we can all agree we dislike him and that he needs to go. So let's make it happen.

8/28/2006 12:15 p.m.  
Blogger Diamond Fan a dit...

Is Grit Heart really Richard Diamond?




8/28/2006 3:47 p.m.  

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