November 24, 2006

Harper Lands Knockout Punch on Bloc

“This is their third position in three days on the issue. And I think now they have to explain what their raison d'etre is in Ottawa if they're going to pass a resolution put forward by the prime minister that endorses the unity of Canada."

For a party that was a temporary rainbow coalition, this is not a good day for the separatists...

28 Commentaires:

Blogger [JTF6.0]Undecided a dit...

I'm not sure that Canada can take any more "victories" like this. In summary, "short-term gain, BIG long-term pain."

11/24/2006 2:07 PM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

If by knockout you mean separatists are defeated, your clearly dreaming. This motion is not good for canada because it separates the french-canadian people in quebec from the french-canadian people outside quebec. Which is EXACTLY what separatists want, a very french quebec, and a very english ROC.

Thank you so much Mr. ignatieff for defending canada against separatists. Its too bad the motion doeant go as far as you would have been willing to go, as in giving the province itself the term nation. That would have really defeated the separatists eh?

11/24/2006 2:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous a dit...

Harper is now referring to the "reality of the Quebec nation" when talking to the media.

11/24/2006 2:29 PM  
Blogger canuckistanian a dit...

the bloc wanted the house to recognize the quebecois as a nation. the house is recognizing the quebecois as a nation. how is this a defeat for the bloc???

unless we apply iggy logic: up is down, supporting coercive interrogations is opposing coercive interrogations, calling quebec nationalism regressive means we should recognize quebec as a nation in the constitution, supporting the invasion of iraq as an imperial war means that i like kurds, saying that no military should ever send ground forces into afghanistan and that we should only employ aerial bombardment means we should extend our ground forces their 'til 2009, saying that i led on this issue means that all the candidates share the same view, saying that quebec MUST be recognized as a nation in the constitution means that i have NEVER said we should recognize quebec in the constitution...etc et al...

right, by that logic this was a victory for federalists!!!

11/24/2006 2:33 PM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

If harper is saying that harper needs to pull his head out of his ass. He is the prime minister of canada FFS.
He has to choose his words more carefully or he risks doing an ignatieff.

11/24/2006 2:36 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Hahaha

aww have the poor Rae supporters spun themselves out of control again?

Quebec and Quebecois are the SAME BLOODY thing

A Quebecois is a person who resides in Quebec.

I told Braeden people wouldnt be able to stand on that island for long.

It makes no logical sense to say Quebecers are a nation within Canada and then to say the territory where the vast majority of them live not a nation.

I would be surprised to see anyone significant take that position.

Seeing Duceppe fumble around on this on LCN this afternoon is cracking me up...poor muffin, probably thought he was gonna pop open a bottle of champagne this weekend.

oh and for the record i meant knockout punch on this issue. Duceppe cant fight back on this for now. he has to take his beating and go home for Christmas

11/24/2006 3:29 PM  
Blogger Chuckercanuck a dit...

dear antonio,

you're nuts though.

the Quebecois and Quebec are NOT the same thing and that is critical.

The province of Quebec and the Quebecois nation have been cleaved. Quebec's territory does not belong to separatists and now we even have the separatist party making that distinction.

Partition in the event of separation is now assured.

T

11/24/2006 3:52 PM  
Blogger Chuckercanuck a dit...

To the others:

this is a knock out punch because Duceppe and the seppies have worked for decades to make the separatist cause a CIVIC movement.

Today, everyone agrees, even the separatists: the seppie movement is an ETHNIC movement. Not CIVIC.

Now, let's see how popular separtism is knowing that:

a) it is based on an ethnic nationalism that excludes everyone but Quebecois francophones.

b) Quebec the Country won't control more than 50% of Quebec the Province's territory.

11/24/2006 3:53 PM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

lets see:

harpers motion specifically says "quebecois"

dion says quebecois is better because it helps remove legal weight to QUEBEC THE PROVINCE being a nation

is it ignatieffs position that THE PROVINCE OF QUEBEC forms a nation? If so, that clearly shows ignatieff is too incompetent to defend canada.

11/24/2006 3:55 PM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

I heartily encourage ignatieff to clear up any confusion and to raise his own motion in the house of commons : "That the province of quebec is a nation."

11/24/2006 3:57 PM  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Antonio,

We Quebecers are a distinct bunch. Quebec is recognized as a nation, fine... a nation, within a nation. A potential problem I see is that the Quebec nation will become synonymous to franco-quebec culture, while ignoring other Quebecers from different cultural background. What happens to those 15%?

This is a problem I can see happening, because unlike Canadian nationalism, Quebec nationalism has always seemed to be more centered on franco-quebec, leaving Anglo- Quebecers, Italo-Quebecers, Natives, etc ignored.

Also, I's like to put forth the motion that Saint-Leonard should be recognized as a nation as well, because it is probably the area where Italian culture and language survive the most in all of North America.

Bring it up to Iggy.

Do it.

11/24/2006 4:04 PM  
Blogger cat mutant a dit...

Antonio,

We Quebecers are a distinct bunch. Quebec is recognized as a nation, fine... a nation, within a nation. A potential problem I see is that the Quebec nation will become synonymous to franco-quebec culture, while ignoring other Quebecers from different cultural background. What happens to those 15%?

This is a problem I can see happening, because unlike Canadian nationalism, Quebec nationalism has always seemed to be more centered on franco-quebec, leaving Anglo- Quebecers, Italo-Quebecers, Natives, etc ignored.

Also, I's like to put forth the motion that Saint-Leonard should be recognized as a nation as well, because it is probably the area where Italian culture and language survive the most in all of North America.

Bring it up to Iggy.

Do it.

11/24/2006 4:04 PM  
Blogger WestmountLiberal a dit...

Antonio

A Quebecois is NOT necessarily someone who resides in Quebec.

Residency does not define nationality.

You, and your soon to be has-been candidate, should know better than this.

11/24/2006 4:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous a dit...

1. "The Parliament of Canada has recognized (overwhelmingly, with all party support of a motion NOT brought forward by the BQ) that the Quebecois are a nation, while acknowledging the objective fact that our nation currently resides within the borders of the larger Canadian nation."

2. "'Quebecoise' is a word which refers to a citizen of Quebec. Period."

3. As a nation, acknowledged by the Parliament of Canada, we have an affirmative right to self-determination as outlined in the United Nations Charter.

4. We will now hold a referendum to determine whether our nation (acknowledged by Canada's Prime Minister and Parliament) should continue to be confined within another nation's borders, or should become not just a nation, but an INDEPENDENT nation.

Four easy steps to the end of Canada as we know it.

Ducceppe put forward a resolution that had no hope of passing, in order to stir up trouble for the Liberals. Now, he's going to get almost the exact same resolution passed, OVERWHELMINGLY, with all party support (and a simple caveat that basically acknowledges the self-evident fact that the "Quebecois nation" hasn't yet separated from Canada... YET...).

If you'd suggested to Ducceppe 6 months ago that he put Harper's motion forward for a vote, he would have thought you were smoking crack. Under Chretien this would have been UNTHINKABLE. Hell, Mulroney almost tore the country apart because he tried to deal with an even less meaningful acknowledgement of Quebec as a "distinct society".

Ducceppe isn't dazed by some rhetorical knockout punch. He's drunk from all the partying he's been doing every night.

People seem to think this is an end. It's not. It's a new beginning. I think it's going to be a rough ride.

11/24/2006 4:41 PM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

Unfortunately lord kitchener i think your right in that harpers resolution does more harm then good.

I think we should send a thank you note to all those mps who vote against this motion.

Jesus, even hedy fry thinks this is wrong, and shes something of a nut.

11/24/2006 4:51 PM  
Blogger canuckistanian a dit...

antonio said:
"Quebec and Quebecois are the SAME BLOODY thing. A Quebecois is a person who resides in Quebec."

i'll tell that to all my friends in quebec...they'll be left scratching their heads. a quebecois is someone who identifies with quebec before canada. usually someone who thinks that anglophones are the enemy, and spouts off vitriol about "angry anglos".

"It makes no logical sense to say Quebecers are a nation within Canada and then to say the territory where the vast majority of them live not a nation."

umm, why is it that 34% of quebeckers don't think they are part of the quebecois nation??? why should the territory of 34% of quebeckers be taken from them and given to the quebecois nation??? you are arguing in favour of nearly every separatist's nocturnal emission and you call yourself a federalist?...a trudeau-federalist no less??? strange weirdness!

chuckercanuck said:
"it is based on an ethnic nationalism that excludes everyone but Quebecois francophones."

correction: it also excludes francophone quebeckers who call canada their nation...the people who actually believe in civic nationalism.

11/24/2006 4:54 PM  
Blogger canuckistanian a dit...

antonio:
i forgot to add that your view that qubec and quebecois is the same thing and they are both a nation, describes a nation-state. a nation-state is a state with a singular ethnic group within its territorial boundaries. quebec is a multi-ethnic society. ergo, it is not a nation-state. if it were to separate it could be defined as a civic nation. if it wants to be a nation-state, alot of ethnic cleansing and possibly genocide will have to occur.

11/24/2006 5:00 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

oh my

accusing the separatists of wanting to kill the anglos now...how classy...thankfully canuckistanian, youre not a public figure. I would have to resign if I accused the separatists of plotting genocide or ethnic cleansing. Your rhetoric really does not help the debate.

I stand by my views guys

Quebec is a civic nation. Quebec the province and the people that live there form a civic nation within Canada.

If there are some who do not believe this is true, they are more than welcome to believe that.

However, to associate Quebecer to the french language only, and automatically, is to endorse ethnic nationalism, which I have never supported.

Partition will only happen if the courts allow it chuck and you know that. Both sides cant continuously fight forever.

Lastly, to accuse all separatists of wanting to create an ethnic nation with a race of French-speaking people, which propatria has done, is an insult to those who do not have this closed-minded, and racist view.

This debate is seemingly far from over.

11/24/2006 5:55 PM  
Blogger canuckistanian a dit...

great debate strategy: if you don't want to address your opponents views; change their views and debate that.

i NEVER accused separatists of wanting to commit genocide. i said, if QUEBEC is to be considered a nation-state (a state with a singular ethnicity), alot of ethnic cleansing and genocide will have to occur.

quebec is a multi-ethnic province. it is not a nation. if it were to be defined as a civic nation, that would require political sovereignty. this is a separatist position.

quebec is not a nation. 34% of the people that live their do NOT consider quebec or the quebecois to be their nation. what of their views??? what of all the francophone quebeckers who view canada as their nation??? please answer these two questions.

11/24/2006 6:08 PM  
Blogger Chuckercanuck a dit...

I am not part of this Quebecois nation.

Generations before me have lived in Quebec. In Montreal.

I'm not part of this Quebecois nation, but I'm a Quebecker.

Denying that is like denying the francophone Quebeckers are a nation.

There is Canadian Idol. There is Star Academie. And there are Quebeckers who watch Canadian Idol.

11/24/2006 6:10 PM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

"Partition will only happen if the courts allow it chuck and you know that. Both sides cant continuously fight forever."

Courts have declared quebecs unilateral succession from canada as being illegal. Separatists say that declaration as meaningless. So it makes no sense to handcuff canadian separatists with the same law. If canada is divisible, so is quebec.

"Lastly, to accuse all separatists of wanting to create an ethnic nation with a race of French-speaking people, which propatria has done, is an insult to those who do not have this closed-minded, and racist view."

I think separatists want a quebec thats as french as possible. If thats racist, color me racist.

And i hope you will be telling all those delegates from outside of quebec on ignatieffs views on the province of quebec being a nation. That will win them over for sure.

11/24/2006 6:27 PM  
Blogger anybody but iggy a dit...

Antonio,
civic nationalism may now be your buzzword, but why did the resolution you embraced on the General Council floor describe common language and culture as qualifiers for being part of the "Quebec nation"? Sounds pretty ethnic to me (and like a bit of revisoinist history to boot).
Fact is, Quebec is a province, and the Quebecois are a part of the population residing therein. They are the ones who stole the land from the First Nations peoples, before the English stole it from them.
Back to school, Antonio!

11/24/2006 11:54 PM  
Blogger Antonio a dit...

Thank you for saying anglophones were not part of the nation.

I hope your candidate of choice (stephane Dion) does not embaace the same opinion

11/25/2006 5:46 AM  
Blogger Loraine Lamontagne a dit...

Antonio: In case you miss it with your busy Lib schedule, Prof Pierre Martin gets it right in Le Devoir today: http://www.ledevoir.com/2006/11/25/123559.html

Now, with all due respect, I don't believe you truly understand Harper's vision for minorities in Canada (including the linguistic one). You certainly don't seem to have a clue about living as a francophone in a province other than Quebec, as I do. We don't have the luxury of pie-in-the-sky, Renan/Ignatieffesque definitions of who we are. Our concerns are our legal rights. Happy to hear that a Liberal government would not let us down but to be told by yourself that Liberals consider French Canadians as political chips in their game is not particurly rejoicing. It would certainly be a major departure for the Liberal Party of Canada!

11/25/2006 7:25 AM  
Blogger propatria a dit...

Thank ignatieff for this. The fool wants to leave the door open to the province of quebec being enshrined in the constitution as a nation, but what about french-canadian culture outside of quebec? Selling them out to quebec separatists is worth how much?

11/25/2006 11:30 AM  
Blogger dollard_liberal a dit...

May 1968: We are all German Jews

September 2001: We are all Americans

October 1995: We are all Québecois

Levesque: if you pay taxes to the Quebec government, you are a Quebecker.

I think that's good enough for me. I am first-generation of south asian parents and I get kicks whenever I talk to a Quebecois in his or her language...

11/25/2006 12:53 PM  
Blogger anybody but iggy a dit...

Nice try to twist my words, but what I had infact said is that what YOU endorse is ethnic, rather than civic nationalsim (as you claim).
NOWHERE IN MY POST did I say that Quebec OR the Quebecois were a nation - I said that Quebec was a province, and the Quebecois were a part of the population residing within that province.
Jeez, when I said you should go back to school, perhaps I should have specificed Kindergarten - so you could learn to READ properly.
I never said that Anglos were not a part of the nation - they are, and that (civic) nation is CANADA, where we are all equal citizens.
If YOU are so bothered that Anglos are not included in the new "nation" resolution, then why did you ENDORSE it here?
Get your facts straight and keep in consistent.

11/25/2006 9:40 PM  
Blogger dollard_liberal a dit...

I yawn at anybody but iggy's comments. "One ill turn deserves another."

11/25/2006 11:39 PM  

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